Extended select type

Phil Spiby Phil.Spiby at eurostep.com
Fri Apr 19 17:20:49 EDT 2002 

Jochen,

OK I will make this nice and easy for you!

There is NO normative text in the EXPRESS LRM (ISO 10303-11:1994) regarding
the lines which connect to the composition symbols representing page
references.

D.4.1 Normatively explains the composition symbol itself and the meanings of
the numbers etc in the symbol, but makes NO reference to the lines
connecting to this.

Figure D.12 is normatively referenced in the text of D.4.1, but again only
in context of the rounded box which is the composition symbol.

Since we have NO normative text regarding the lines connecting to page
reference composition symbols, different tool vendors have made different
interpretations of how this should be understood. None of these can be said
to be incorrect or invalid since there is NO specification of what is valid!

Major differences between tools that I have used (and I have used the
following: EDM Visual EXPRESS, ProSTEP, FirstSTEP-XG and, of course
GraphicalEXPRESS)
Some tools assume there should be one page-reference pair of symbols for
each line which goes over a page boundary.
Some tools there should be a pair of page reference symbols for each line
style crossing a page boundary (so there should be one for mandatory
attributes, another for optional attributes and another for subtype
relationships)
Some tools assume that different relationships can be associated with a
single page reference symbol and only a single normal line is shown on the
referenced page.

As you can see the situation is very confused.

In the original E2 project (now the dead E3) we attempted to sort this
situation out by making a clear specification of how relationships can be
attached to page references. This was caused when we added new relationship
symbols for the subtype constraint and dynamic capabilities, but we soon
realised that the situation for E1 was not clear.

By moving the subtype constraint mechanism from E3 into E2 we have the same
problem. Which line terminators should be connected to the link from the
page reference symbol on the referenced page and the object being referenced
if the reference is a total_over relationship?

What does everyone want?
Should we push for a consistent approach to this situation, if so I would
recommend that we take the solution proposed in the original E2.

Phil

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jochen Haenisch [mailto:Jochen.Haenisch at epmtech.jotne.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 3:48 PM
> To: 'Phil.Spiby at Eurostep.com'; 'Pascal Huau'; WG11
> Cc: Module exploder
> Subject: RE: Extended select type
>
>
> Concerning clear statements, Phil, what I can see is that your
> statement is
> pretty unclear. I thought the British write short sentences!
>
> Could you try to formulate your considerations a little more precise,
> please?!?
> Thank you in advance!
>
> Best regards, Jochen.
> ____________________________________________________________
> Jochen Haenisch			E-mail:
> Jochen.Haenisch at epmtech.jotne.com
> EPM Technology AS		Home of the EXPRESS Data Manager
> P.O Box 6629 Etterstad		Tel: Int + 47 23 17 17 26;
> mobile: Int + 47
> 922 60 274
> N-0607 Oslo				Fax: Int + 47 23 17 17 01
> Norway					Web:
> http://www.epmtech.jotne.com
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Phil Spiby [SMTP:Phil.Spiby at Eurostep.com]
> > Sent:	18. april 2002 12:14
> > To:	Jochen Haenisch; 'Pascal Huau'; WG11
> > Cc:	Module exploder
> > Subject:	RE: Extended select type
> >
> > Jochen,
> >
> > It is clear there is a line with a circle on the end, but  there is NO
> > normative text defining the style of this line (should it be thick,
> > normal,
> > dashed). Since we now have other end styles for Subtype
> constraints should
> > these replace the circle at the end, should we have one page
> reference per
> > relationship, can multiple things point to the page reference, if they
> > have
> > different line styles how are these manages on the referred to page,
> > should
> > the icon have multiple lines linking it to the referred to object.
> >
> > As you can see there is no clear statement on what is the case
> here. If we
> > want to clarify this and get a consistent approach then it will
> delay the
> > DAM, since all the tools deal with this in different ways.
> >
> > Phil
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jochen Haenisch [mailto:Jochen.Haenisch at epmtech.jotne.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 10:46 AM
> > > To: 'Phil.Spiby at Eurostep.com'; 'Pascal Huau'; WG11
> > > Cc: Module exploder
> > > Subject: RE: Extended select type
> > >
> > >
> > > Phil,
> > > I do not know where the ambiguity is, but figure D.12 is at least
> > > clear. And
> > > not having a circle is sensible and easy to explain to modellers.
> > > Jochen
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > Jochen Haenisch			E-mail:
> > > Jochen.Haenisch at epmtech.jotne.com
> > > EPM Technology AS		Home of the EXPRESS Data Manager
> > > P.O Box 6629 Etterstad		Tel: Int + 47 23 17 17 26;
> > > mobile: Int + 47
> > > 922 60 274
> > > N-0607 Oslo				Fax: Int + 47 23 17 17 01
> > > Norway					Web:
> > > http://www.epmtech.jotne.com
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From:	Phil Spiby [SMTP:Phil.Spiby at Eurostep.com]
> > > > Sent:	18. april 2002 11:34
> > > > To:	Jochen Haenisch; 'Pascal Huau'; WG11
> > > > Cc:	Module exploder
> > > > Subject:	RE: Extended select type
> > > >
> > > > Jochen,
> > > >
> > > > Sorry to do this but...
> > > >
> > > > > In case the line ends at an off-page
> > > > > reference, there is no circle at the off-page reference > symbol;
> > this
> > > > is
> > > > > never the case!
> > > >
> > > > The standard does not state normatively that this is the case,
> > > in fact the
> > > > standard is rather ambiguous in this area. We did tidy this up
> > > > significantly
> > > > in the original E2 (now E3) and make clear statements about the line
> > > > styles
> > > > to be used etc. But since there was a wide variety of
> interpretations
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > current tools we decided not to force this issue the DAM (E2).
> > > >
> > > > Phil
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: owner-wg11 at steptools.com [mailto:owner-wg11 at steptools.com]On
> > > > > Behalf Of Jochen Haenisch
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 8:27 AM
> > > > > To: 'Pascal Huau'; WG11
> > > > > Cc: Module exploder
> > > > > Subject: RE: Extended select type
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Pascal,
> > > > >
> > > > > attached is a ppt-file with my understanding of the new Express-G
> > > > symbols.
> > > > > For selects this seems to be in line with your description below -
> > > > except
> > > > > (maybe?!?) for the direction: the line goes from the
> > > extensible (the one
> > > > > with the EX) to the extending. In case the line ends at
> an off-page
> > > > > reference, there is no circle at the off-page reference
> > > symbol; this is
> > > > > never the case!
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards, Jochen.
> > > > >
> > > > >  <<P11e2_graphical_symbols.ppt>>
> > > > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > > > Jochen Haenisch			E-mail:
> > > > > Jochen.Haenisch at epmtech.jotne.com
> > > > > EPM Technology AS		Home of the EXPRESS Data Manager
> > > > > P.O Box 6629 Etterstad		Tel: Int + 47 23 17 17 26;
> > > > > mobile: Int + 47
> > > > > 922 60 274
> > > > > N-0607 Oslo				Fax: Int + 47 23 17 17 01
> > > > > Norway					Web:
> > > > > http://www.epmtech.jotne.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From:	Pascal Huau [SMTP:pascalhuau at goset.asso.fr]
> > > > > > Sent:	17. april 2002 15:29
> > > > > > To:	WG11
> > > > > > Cc:	Module exploder
> > > > > > Subject:	Extended select type
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dear Express2 experts,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Question about the Express-G representation of an
> extended SELECT
> > > > type:
> > > > > > could you confirm that the connection line between the extended
> > > > > SELECT and
> > > > > > the extensible SELECT is a thick line that goes from the
> > > > > rectangle of the
> > > > > > extended select to the rectangle of the extensible select (line
> > > > > terminated
> > > > > > by a circle).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Additional question:
> > > > > > in case the extensible select is used from an another schema,
> > shall
> > > > the
> > > > > > line end at the reference balloon with or without a circle?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks in advance for your help,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards,
> > > > > > Pascal Huau
> > > > > > Association GOSET
> > > > > > 107,111 avenue Clemenceau
> > > > > > 92000 Nanterre
> > > > > > France
> > > > >
> > >
>

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