[wg11] RE: What is a syntax?
Radack, Gerald
Radack at ctc.com
Wed Sep 5 10:20:01 EDT 2007
Dear Matthew:
Thanks for you comments. See my responses below.
Regards,
Gerry
________________________________
From: matthew.west at shell.com [mailto:matthew.west at shell.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 5:08 AM
To: Radack, Gerald; wg11 at steptools.com; david.price at eurostep.com;
bg_wenzel at csi.com; Jochen.Haenisch at epmtech.jotne.com
Cc: Peter.Benson at ECCMA.org
Subject: RE: What is a syntax?
Dear Gerry,
A couple of comments. You give the following definition for syntax:
The syntax of a message class is a set of rules that specify the
allowable structure of a message belonging to the message class. If the
message class has a higher-order structure, then the syntax also
contains rules for generating the higher-order structure from the
lower-order structure.
1. This looks like a definition of "message class syntax" rather than
syntax.
GR> The above sentence was not intended as a definition of "syntax" in
general. I was planning not to define "syntax" but revert to the
dictionary definition. The sentence seems valid given that "syntax of a
message class" = "message class syntax".
2. What does "higher order" mean in this context?
GR> By higher-order structure, I mean the arrangement of elements that
appear above the bottom level in the hierarchy diagrams. In the case of
English, that would be the arrangement of characters, words, sentences,
etc.
As a more general definition of syntax, and distinction from semantics
and pragmatics I found the following on the web which seems quite good
as a base definition (adapted slightly).
The rules governing the structure of a language. It specifies how words
and symbols are put together to form statements and expressions, without
regard to meaning or truth.
GR> The above definition references the term "language" without defining
it. The definition I have adapted from [1] is:
language
set of strings over an alphabet
[1] Aho, Alfred V., and Jeffrey D. Ullman, The Theory of Parsing,
Translation, and Compiling, Volume I: Parsing, Prentice-Hall, 1972.
But if that is the definition of language, "structure of members of a
language" (i.e., the strings) would be more precise than "structure of a
language".
I would expect to see at least some mention of concrete syntax as well
as abstract syntax. It is possible that the combination of an EXPRESS
Data Model and Part 21 gives a concrete syntax. Lexical EXPRESS itself
of course has a concrete syntax.
GR> Can you provide a few sentences?
I am also left wondering what "semantic encoding requirements" means.
>From the internet I get:
encoding is the process of getting information into memory for storage.
Semantic encoding is a specific type of encoding in which the meaning of
something (a word, phrase, picture, event, whatever) is encoded as
opposed to the sound or vision of it.
GR> I was considering changing "semantic encoding requirements" in the
scope statement to "requirements for resolving a master data message to
its meaning".
So it really seems to be about identifiers.
Your definition:
message class
class of master data messages that perform a similar role
is really a definition of "master data message class".
GR> In view of the decision made at this past Tuesday's teleconference
to avoid master data-specific terminology where possible, I propose
modifying the definition as follows:
message class
class of messages that perform a similar role
and not defining "master data message class".
In "B1 - The structure of Messages" there is only a hierarchical
structure indicated, what is not shown is that there are (possibly) a
number of different element types at each level, and that there are
rules for how they can be arranged.
GR> Yes. The purpose of including the hierarchical structure was to
show that syntax can be defined at different levels. It would take too
much space to give a complete grammar for any of the examples
(programming language, EDI message, etc.) and I don't think it is
necessary.
The original intent of this text was to address comments saying that the
reviewers do not know what we mean by syntax. It was not intended as a
complete overview of syntax. The examples presuppose some knowledge of
the subject matter (programming languages, EDI messages, etc.).
The section on semantics looks rather weak.
GR> I don't think we need to say as much about semantics, because in ISO
8000, it is about resolving a concept identifier to text that gives its
meaning. Is there anything in particular you think should be added?
Meaning is not only about resolving signs to what they refer to, but
also what can be inferred from the statements (because of the rules that
are stated in the language or message structure).
GR> That may be true in general, but part 110 only deals with data
quality at the property value pair level. How much do we need to say
about inferring meaning from a property value pair?
Regards
Matthew West
Reference Data Architecture and Standards Manager
Shell International Petroleum Company Limited
Registered in England and Wales
Registered number: 621148
Registered office: Shell Centre, London SE1 7NA, United Kingdom
Tel: +44 20 7934 4490 Mobile: +44 7796 336538
Email: matthew.west at shell.com
http://www.shell.com <http://www.shell.com/>
http://www.matthew-west.org.uk/
-----Original Message-----
From: Radack, Gerald [mailto:Radack at ctc.com]
Sent: 05 September 2007 04:38
To: wg11 at steptools.com; david.price at eurostep.com; Bernd G. Wenzel;
Jochen.Haenisch at epmtech.jotne.com
Cc: Peter Benson; West, Matthew R SIPC-DFC/D21
Subject: FW: What is a syntax?
Folks:
I'm not sure if the previous emails (below) went through to the
WG11 exploder. So here goes again. For those of you who did receive
the previous post, I apologize. Anyway, the attached document is
expanded a bit further.
The Committee Draft of ISO 8000-110 contained the following in
its scope statement.
The following are within the scope of this part of ISO 8000:
* syntax requirements;
* semantic encoding requirements;
* requirements regarding conformance to customer
needs.
The following ballot comment was raised:
What is meant by syntax? Is it a data model? Not defined in the
definitions of Part 2
I would appreciate any comments on the attached document on
syntax and semantics.
Regards,
Gerry
________________________________
From: Radack, Gerald
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 9:15 PM
To: 'wg11 at steptools.com'
Cc: 'Peter Benson'; matthew.west at shell.com
Subject: FW: What is a syntax?
Folks:
Attached is an expanded version of the document on syntax.
Again, I would appreciate any comments or suggestions.
Thanks.
Gerry Radack
________________________________
From: Radack, Gerald
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 3:07 PM
To: 'wg11 at steptools.com'
Cc: 'Peter Benson'; matthew.west at shell.com
Subject: What is a syntax?
Folks:
The Committee Draft of ISO 8000-110 contained the following in
its scope statement.
The following are within the scope of this part of ISO 8000:
* syntax requirements;
* semantic encoding requirements;
* requirements regarding conformance to customer needs.
The following ballot comment was raised:
What is meant by syntax? Is it a data model? Not defined in the
definitions of Part 2
In order to try to answer this question, I wrote the attached
document CMS N123. I would appreciate any comments or suggestions for
improvement.
A draft of ISO 8000 parts 2 and 110 is also attached. When
unzipping, be sure you use ZIP program settings that preserve the
directory structure.
Thanks.
Gerry Radack
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