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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
Hi Laurent,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your contribution. I think I understand all your
points, but apologize if I have missed something in the
translation.<br>
<br>
We need to remember that STEP-NC is seeking to replace M & G
codes (ISO 6983) with models. The goals are to make the controls
easier to use because the models include information on what is
being machined, and to enable more reuse of manufacturing
solutions. <br>
<br>
For some customers the perfect solution is going to be to include
the CAM system on the control because the solution can be
developed off-line and then fine-tuned on-line. These customers
will not need STEP-NC- until they need to send their solution to
someone who prefers a different CAM solution - and this may be
never.<br>
<br>
The STEP-NC perspective is that the development of a solution in
CAM is a different task to running a solution on the CNC. The CNC
should be as easy and safe to use as possible, and it should be
able to run faster or slower depending on the production schedule,
because running faster usually means more tool wear.<br>
<br>
Safety and flexibility require a model of all aspects of the
machining including the tolerances and PMI constraints that have
to be met on the final part, and the geometry of the setup and
fixtures so that the machine supervisor can know where material is
to be cut and where material is to be avoided.<br>
<br>
Ease of use requires a complete model of the machining at all
times so that the process can be restarted graphically and so that
corrections (compensations) can be made against the AS-IS or TO-BE
geometry of the part in the context of the tolerances that must be
met.<br>
<br>
We have not talked about the operation parameters yet. These are
not required for the machining (only the motions are required) but
they are desirable. For example, an operator may want to make a
quick change on the control without going back to the CAM. Hence
there is a need for balancing. If a vendor like Delcam has
invested millions of dollars in developing a new feature then it
would be completely wrong for STEP to harm the value of that IP by
including a description in the standard. On the other hand there
are some operations, such as pocketing and drilling, where the
required parameters are known across the industry and in these
cases it would be wrong to deny the CNC operator the ability to
quickly edit a solution.<br>
<br>
There are two additional qualities of STEP that need to be
understood. The first is that it is almost infinitely extendible.
Because of its internal architecture, upward compatible extensions
are always possible. These can be done in private fashion by the
vendor (though this is not encouraged) or in public by releasing a
new edition of the standard. Because the standard is upward
compatible a solution that worked before the extension will
continue to operate after the extension, while new solutions take
advantage of whatever new features have been added. While some may
cast doubts on this, it is the reason why STEP has been able to
survive for 20 years in the CAD world, and why it will be able to
survive for many years in the manufacturing world. <br>
<br>
Finally, there are the security and authorization requirements.
There are several security features in STEP and STEP-NC already
but we are now in the process of updating the file format to
support digital signatures and fingerprints (as part of the PLOT
project). The new file format will allow you to be sure the data
has not changed since it was sent with multiple levels of
authorization so that you can be sure the model, or the PMI, or
the process has not changed, since it was published.<br>
<br>
Thanks again for your comments. I am looking forward to continuing
this discussion on Wednesday.<br>
<br>
Martin Hardwick<br>
Team Leader STEP-Manufacturing<br>
<br>
On 8/18/2014 9:17 AM, Lalliard Laurent wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Hello, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">I regularly follow the development on the
STEP-NC standard. Unfortunately my schedule does not allow
me to participate to your discussions. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">However, I am always amazed in your discussions
to read your positions and the reality of my situation. You
mentioned the case of the exchange from the CAM to the NC
controller through the APT or the BCL formats and via a
third-party solutions to convert these formats. If it’s true
for users of solutions like CATIA, NX, Creo or even
MasterCAM, the situation changes and this conversion step is
for us no more a reality. We use the 5 following CAM
solutions :<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">• WorkNc (Vero Software– Sweden after the
recent acquisition by the Hexagon metrology group)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">• PowerMILL and PowerInspect OM (Delcam – UK)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">• Tebis (Tebis - Germany )<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">• Esprit (DP Technology - USA)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">• TopSolid (Missler Software - France)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">(According to the last CIMdata NC Software
Market Analysis Report, these 5 companies represent 35% of
the <b>CAM</b> market in terms of of installed software
licenses against 28% to Dassault+Siemens +PTC and CNC
Software)<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">For these five CAM package, conversion goes
through an internal solution and the software evolutions by
taking into account the “machine context” (Consideration of
the machine kinematics / tool library / machining related
processes ) have made the use of an external postprocessor
virtually more and more difficult. This difficulty comes
from the stronger link between the software
parameters/strategies and the higher level of the generated
code. Under these conditions use an internal postprocessor
integrate and sell the postprocessor is also a part of his
income for an editor. Use of a single NC-STEP format would
also be a loss of activity (as the code generation must run
within his solution and his technicians). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">His interest is to have a machine code
generation that is still compatible with the newest
developed strategies. I take as an example the "polar
milling" strategy of Delcam. Using it require an update of
its Postprocessor so even if you don't have to pay for this
function using the new feature generates revenue for the
editor. (Web page on the Polar milling :<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.delcam.com/news/press_article.asp?releaseId=1335">http://www.delcam.com/news/press_article.asp?releaseId=1335</a>
)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Finally, I draw your attention to the case of
the Tebis solution. Tebis has a very unique approach to data
management : in a single CAD file (*.cad) you can find all
the informations of your machining process. You can have not
only the geometry information, but also the machines
definitions, the tools libraries, all automatic machining
process called NCSet but also your POSTPROCESSORS,
everything... In these conditions all the knowledge of your
business can be stored in ONE file. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">To organize and secure the exchanges between
users of their solution (eg within the same group or with a
subcontractor) Tebis introduced since version 3.5 the
concept of "Know how protection". Users or administrators
can now define the levels of protection on the use of these
data by a third user. This fundamental notion in
collaboration between supplier and subcontractor is absent
from the standard Step NC yet it is one of the future
challenges of data exchange and collaboration. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">On this point the evolution of Step-Nc should
provide an answer on this point, before trying to integrate
everything into a single format. This concept is much more
important in my view that the risks associated with loss of
income for editors for accepting a single exchange format.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">I recommend to read the Tebis brochure :
Increase the productivity within your CAD/CAM process
according to plan(Page 10 to 11) : <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.tebis.com/cms/fileadmin/broschueren/en_ca_Tebis_V35_R1_A4_2010.pdf">http://www.tebis.com/cms/fileadmin/broschueren/en_ca_Tebis_V35_R1_A4_2010.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">The situation in Europe may be different but I
think from my point of view that your analyzes are too
limited to a situation that is already outdated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Just my point of view.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US">Best regards, (I'm sorry for my English which
is not as good as I would like)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Laurent
LALLIARD<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">P</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">rocédés<b>
P</b>erformants et<b> I</b>nnovants<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">+33
(0)4 77 79 41 38<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cetim.fr/"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none"><img
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width="120"></span></a><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US">De :</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"
lang="EN-US"> step-manufacturing
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:step-manufacturing-bounces@steptools.com">mailto:step-manufacturing-bounces@steptools.com</a>] <b>De
la part de</b> Martin Hardwick<br>
<b>Envoyé :</b> vendredi 15 août 2014 21:02<br>
<b>À :</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:step-manufacturing@steptools.com">step-manufacturing@steptools.com</a><br>
<b>Objet :</b> [step-manufacturing] Minutes of August
13th conference call<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Attendees <br>
-------------- <br>
Martin Hardwick, STEP Tools, USA <br>
David Loffredo, STEP Tools, USA<br>
Julie Huang, Sandvik Sweden<br>
Alain Brail, Airbus (retired), France<br>
Mike Restall, Sandvik, USA<br>
David Odendahl, Boeing, USA <br>
Sid Venkatesh, Boeing, USA<br>
Leon Xu, Boeing, USA<br>
Jim Kosmala, Okuma, USA<span style="color:windowtext"><br>
Thanh Huynh, </span>Okuma, USA<span
style="color:windowtext"><br>
Bob Baldizzi, </span>Okuma, USA<span
style="color:windowtext"><br>
Paul Kingsley, Okuma, USA</span><br>
<span style="color:windowtext">Rod Tojdowski,</span> Okuma,
USA<span style="color:windowtext"><br>
Thanh Huynh, </span>Okuma, USA<br>
Brian Sides, Okuma, USA<br>
Vincent Marchetti, Ameritech, USA <br>
Wayne Myers, Gosinger, USA<br>
Zhigang Wang, Makino, USA<br>
<br>
The press release for the IMTS demonstration was sent on July
31st.<br>
<br>
We agreed that it is becoming inappropriate to discuss details
of a demonstration to be given in the Okuma booth at IMTS in a
public domain (ISO) conference call.<br>
<br>
We discussed the advantages of replacing the multiple
different formats used by the CAM industry for process data
with STEP-NC.<br>
<br>
Each CAM vendor has its own data format for communicating the
process data designed in its system to the developers of post
processors. The most well known is the NCI format of
Mastercam. The formats are designed to be simple to convert
into G-codes. The conversion is usually done by third parties
who know the coordinate configurations of the machine, and the
preferences of the customer. For the customer the cost of
developing and maintaining the postprocessor is an undesired
cost and the cause of errors because of misunderstanding
between the CAM operators, the post-processor developers, the
CNC operators and the machine tool builders.<br>
<br>
Several attempts have been made to replace the CAM outputs
with with a single standardized file. APT-CL was an early
example but it did not have enough functionality and too many
flavors were added to create that functionality. BCL was
another example. Its features were more closely controlled but
it failed because the cost of developing and maintaining a
post processor from BCL was greater than the cost of
developing and maintaining one from the CAM export formats.<br>
<br>
The CAM export formats have the advantage of working closely
with the CAM systems so the post-processor writer can
visualize what is going on by looking at the process
definition in the CAM system. APT-CL and BCL do not have a
model of the stock or workpiece so process visualization is
very difficult. STEP-NC is different because it includes
geometry models for all of the key elements including the
stock and workpiece but also the cutting tools, fixtures and
machine. Therefore, the process can be understood in context
and systems such as STEP-NC Machine can show simulations to
further enforce data correctness.<br>
<br>
Consequently we discussed whether the industry can replace the
non-standard CAM file formats with ISO 10303-238 STEP-NC. For
the CAM industry there is the cost of developing the software
to export the new data. We estimate this cost to be about
$100K including two months of work and the cost of purchasing
a STEP toolkit. The cost is low because all the geometry
models are already being made in CAD so they only have to be
linked into the process model.<br>
<br>
In return the CAM vendor can reduce costs by no longer having
to manage a post-processor industry. The potential price is
the loss of business if the end user can change between CAM
vendors more easily. A leading vendor will have the winning
functionality and an emerging vendor will like the reduced
costs for market entry, but the other vendors will worry about
the customers currently locked into their post-processor base.<br>
<br>
A recording of the call is on the ftp site. <br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="ftp://www.steptools.com/private/CAM_exchange/Cycle_4/stepmanuf_telecon_20140709.wmv">ftp://www.steptools.com/private/CAM_exchange/Cycle_4/stepmanuf_telecon_20140813.wmv</a><br>
<br>
The next conference call will be held at the regular times on
Wednesday August 20th<br>
<br>
Martin Hardwick<br>
Team Leader ISO STEP-Manufacturing<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
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